"Fitocracy's mission is to make fitness a more fun, more addictive experience. Play Fitocracy to beat challenges, push your boundaries, and show your friends who's boss. Get addicted to your fitness." (taken from the Fitocracy.com website mission statement) I have spent over six months getting completely addicted to my fitness -- running, lifting, cycling, swimming...heck, I've even hiked and playing raquetball by choice. The more time I've spent on the site meeting new people, the more ideas I've gotten about how to improve my own level of fitness. I learned this week that fitness is a relative term, but it shouldn't be.
For me, fitness isn't about looking "swole" or "hot" or the admiration of others. (Ok...maybe a little for that last one if I'm honest!) But, fundamentally, fitness is about being able to run around with my kids, carry two baskets of laundry up the stairs, and live to a ripe old age with my husband. It took me a long time to be able to say the words "I am a runner" with any conviction. Less time with the label of "lifter." As for "swole," I think I'm too old to really understand what that word means and I'm ok with that.
I watched a new friend be castigated on the site for her views that cardio (running specifically) needed more points. Now, yes...it's an internet website with fake points for real workouts so the argument goes "who cares..." But, as a user of the site, I have been consistently frustrated that my all out PR runs do not gain nearly the points as my warmup sets in any of my lifts. In fact, ten minutes of lifting will get me roughly the same points as a four mile run. Ridiculous? Yes. But, it finally brings me to my point. What is fitness and how does a person get to be "fit?"
I learned this week, that for some, the only way to get fit and be healthy is to lift heavy weights. That sounds as ridiculous to me as saying the only way to get fit is to run. Personally, I believe a good mix of the two works well. But, heck...I'm the one who is trying to lift heavy and train for a half marathon. And, as I've been told, the training methods for those are not complementary. I enjoy lifting. So, I lift. I enjoy running. So, I run. It is not my place, or anyone else's, for that matter to tell someone that what they are doing to enjoy their fitness is useless and a waste of time.
So...if you like to run..GO RUN!!! If you like to life...GO LIFT!!! If you like to mix it up and do what you feel....GO GET TO IT!!! It doesn't matter what you do as long as you challenge yourself to get up and do it just a little bit better/faster/harder every time you do it!!
As for getting "swole," that's just a happy bonus.
Hear Hear! I'm so glad you published this!
ReplyDeleteI came to very similar conclusions after the drama on Fito yesterday. Who are these people that think their way is the best way to get fit, and then enforce it with a fake point system? Then to discount other forms of exercise as "broscience" (BTW - I'm not a bro, and neither are lots of other runners).
I would like to invite their "swole" little butts out to my hometown to run the Pikes Peak half or full marathon and see how their version of fitness meets my personal fitness goals. Fitness is relative, and is largely pointless if it doesn't get you to where you want to be!
I personally can't stand to be cooped up in a gym, and even run outside during major snowstorms and sub-zero temps. I do go to a gym, but I don't think I could drag myself there if I didn't have my outdoor goals in sight.
My husband is a gym rat, and loves his heavy weights. He just shakes his head at the Fitocracy drama, and can't believe that people can be that dumb. He supports my goals; I support his. I recently encouraged him to join Fitocracy, and we always have good laugh because he sees how hard I work for my measly points, and he'll soon catch up. But fake points aren't important -- which is why we laugh. However, "RESPECT" is important, and that seems to be in a serious shortage on Fitocracy of late.
googled: castigated, swole
ReplyDeletehaha me too. As well as broscience and butthurt. Man I learned a lot in the past few days.
DeleteLol, As one of the people who probably started the crazy crap storm by posting contradictory views, I still stand by my initial assessment that Fitocracy is not broken and that her group was pointless.
ReplyDeleteTrue, a 5k run that takes an hour and saps all of your strength is only worth about 600 points and you can easily surpass that in a good session of deadlifting. But if you take a look at the top-ten list, you can clearly see that cardio-centric users do manage to rack in retarded amounts of points. The number two guy had a 16000 point rowing session. That's like me going to the gym and doing 300 sets of my 5RM deadlift. Absolutely crazy.
The problem is (point wise) that cardio is an event that can have ridiculous extremes. It is fairly common to see endurance athletes do multi-hour runs. Those extremely lengthy runs are at the "high end" of the point system and are rewarded fairly. The problem for "beginner"-level trainees is that most of their cardio workouts are less than an hour. So they're getting a mere fraction of the points that an advanced athlete will get for the same activity.
I don't get mad that a 700lb deadlift gets more points than a 300lb deadlift, and I think your friend's argument amounts to the same thing. A 2 mile run (though difficult to the untrained) is nowhere near the same level of difficulty as a 26.2 mile run. The problem that your friend had (and was her primary point in all of her arguments) is that she feels like her workout is ridiculously difficult and should be rewarded as much as she "feels" like she got out of it.
The point system is fairly simplistic and I don't think it needs much more tweaking. There is a range of points awarded for an event. A 135lb deadlift is not worth that many points. A 500lb deadlift is worth a significant amount of points. And a 1000lb deadlift is at the upper end of the range and is worth a ton of points. The range is fairly small, but most trainees are probably in the 300-600 range and get adequate points for those events.
The problem with running is that the range goes from a short run of a mile or so (little points) to massive runs of 50+ miles (massive points). Fitocracy may be incorrectly making the assumption that people are training in a run to increase their run distance, but they still expect improvements. Someone that runs 15 miles per week should not expect the massive points of someone running 100 miles per week.
Anyway, I just found her group creation silly and was glad to let her know that I thought she was wrong. If you read back through my comments, I was quite respectful (even when she started the discourse by simply calling me a troll). When the real craziness started a few hours later, it was almost always her being extremely disrespectful to the commenters, most of whom just wanted to have a discussion about her views.
Oh well, it is, after all, just a silly internet game. :)
I guess my main issue is that the fitness industry has convinced 90% of Americans that cardio is absolutely vital for whatever goal you happen to be interested in, and in reality it's not. You can lose fat entirely with careful diet and no cardio at all. You CANNOT lose fat by doing a bunch of cardio and having a bad diet. So if you have to do the diet part anyway, why do both? I guess I'm just lazy, but I'd almost always rather be doing something other than running.
ReplyDeleteThe main benefit of cardio is getting better at cardio. So if you're doing, say, Couch to 5K (I've done the program twice myself), the only goal you're likely to achieve is running a 5K. Which is fine, I suppose, but...why? I mean, having run a 5K doesn't guarantee that you're fit. When I was running I routinely ran 3 miles, 3 times a week, and still had a bodyfat% in the low 30s. If you want to be FIT, you need to get your fat under control with diet, and you admittedly need to get SOME exercise that gets your heart pumping. You can do that by going for a 30 minute walk three times a week, which is much easier on your knees and feet anyway.
Strength training, however, fulfills both the "heart pumping" requirement (more so than walking, too) AND, you know, makes you stronger. It may seem pointless to have a 315 pound deadlift, I mean, how often are you going to need to lift 315 pounds in your daily life? But in reality, what a 315 pound deadlift gets you is the ability to pick up a 30 pound toddler like it's nothing. Strength training for general fitness isn't about increasing your maxes as much as making the lighter weights that much easier. Also, strength training helps limit the muscle and bone loss associated with fat loss.
So, if your goal is fat loss: you can do it with just diet.
If you want to cut fat but also maintain strength: diet and weights.
If you want to grow and build muscle: diet and weights.
If you want to increase cardiovascular fitness: can be done with just weights as well.
So it's not that "the only way to get fit and be healthy is to lift heavy weights." You can certainly get into shape by doing cardio. But you probably aren't going to get into shape by ONLY doing cardio, and in fact you can get into pretty good shape by not doing cardio at all.
That's why cardio isn't worth as many points on Fitocracy. Cardio is (usually) a healthy thing to do, but it just isn't as beneficial as lifting weights.
Good post, ThatLeviathon. I wish I could follow you on Fito directly from here. Now I've got to go and hunt for you. :)
DeleteI followed him based on his VERY good points on the actual thread. :) Seems like a good guy... :)
Delete@CoSpringer: thanks!! And I love that you and your husband have worked out an awesome system together! You're right..it is all about RESPECT.
ReplyDelete@Mike: LOL
@Eric: Yours were not the comments I was talking about. The respectful discussion that occurred as a result of the group in terms of what constitutes good fitness activity was excellent. It was the name calling and viciousness that I took issue with. I know that you lift and you run. And that's awesome. I have problems when someone tells me cardio doesn't have a point....
@Leviathan: Very excellent points. And I was laughing because I see that as the exact point of a deadlift and getting stronger. It isn't about getting to look awesome..it's the fact that I can DO more with my kids and have fun with them!
Thanks for the responses!
@Breezey: Yeah, but unfortunately she went and deleted most of her comments, so I can't point to her behavior and say "it's her fault", though while I was watching it all go down I was flabbergasted. She was the one that was inciting all the negativity that came her way. She was extremely rude to people (like me) that came in with lighthearted comments about her group name. She called me a troll. lol.
ReplyDeleteMeh, after that I basically just sat back and watched the fireworks, but it was mostly her fault. I'm sad that she left because of it, but I'm afraid that she brought it on herself with how she acted. :(
@Eric: I didn't think your responses were "trolling" at all. I think that perhaps she was very frustrated and trying to get her point across. (As for the deleted comments, I agree...)
ReplyDelete@Eric: An hour-long 5K is only like 100 points, and rightfully so. What I take issue with is the other extreme. Yes, if I run a half marathon or longer, especially at my race pace, I will get some serious points - but I *shouldn't*. At least, not as many as I do, given the stated goals of the point system. The devs had a big blog post up about the point changes to lifting, where sets up to 5 reps gave increasing points per rep, then a decreasing amount per rep above 5. Being able to run, say, a half marathon, requires a certain level of endurance and fitness. Beyond that, how much more fitness do you need or get? Running, or ANY fitness activity, has diminishing returns after a certain point, so rewarding points exponentially makes no sense whatsoever if you're claiming to represent fitness benefit.
ReplyDeleteSo the big issue here for me is that cardio points are broken. Not in need of a buff, but actually broken and in need of an overhaul. This is not mentioning the continued lack of a way to effectively track intervals (though this is supposedly "coming soon").
I think the "cardio points need a buff" idea comes in when you consider that, for example, I get as many points (or more!) for a lifting session (as a newb) as I do for any workouts except my long runs. I'll get 700-900 points for lifting, but only 500-600 for a hard fartlek workout (yeah, I know, enter HR, but average HR for something like a fartlek is going to be relatively low since most of the time is spent at lower HRs - so if you're doing it right, HR will only really give you a significant boost on race day).
Re: imaginary points - look, it's a site that's hyped as RPG meets fitness. Points are claimed to be a proxy for fitness benefit. Obviously broken points aren't going to stop me from doing the workouts that will help me reach my goal - that would be stupid. But it's worth discussing how to make points match what they claim to match.
(I'm sure not all of this was aimed at Eric, I got rambly.)
ThatLeviathan said: "If you want to increase cardiovascular fitness: can be done with just weights as well."
Which is true, but only in a limited way. If you want to improve overall cardio fitness, you have to perform exercises that are primarily cardio. Consider the inverse: If I want to increase leg strength, I could hop on my bike and do hill sprints and track workouts. I'm primarily working my cardiovascular system, but my legs will get huge and strong; again, in a limited way.
You make excellent points and I agree with you. It's just that, in the several months I've been using Fito, the points have been broken the entire time. Most of us have come to accept it. It comes down to ethics in some cases: if I'm in a duel with someone, I can be a douche canoe and go to the gym and do 50 sets of weighted Glute Hamstring Raises and earn a bajillionfinity points. Or, I can do what I normally was going to do anyway and hope it's enough to beat my opponent.
DeleteThe points stopped mattering to me a long time ago and now it's merely just the social aspect (and long-term logging) that I enjoy most. We're all trying to get as strong or fast as possible and grumbling about the problems with Fitocracy seems like a waste of time.
But yeah, they do need to freaking add intervals. Lol.
I think why cardio is more important in terms of point-fixing is that it's a whole category of things, including some that are hugely popular and the main activities of people's workouts. Yeah, hamstring raises and one-armed dumbbell whatevers could have their points tweaked, but how many people actually do those ever vs. how many people run? The point system for running gives incentive for lots of long runs and specifically handicaps intervals and other speedwork - which is arguably better for overall fitness and certainly doesn't have the diminishing fitness returns problem that long runs have. This specifically is hypocritical of the dev team, where hamstring raise points could just be an oversight of a point tweak somewhere - the number of points may be off, but the general "x points per rep, where x gets smaller has reps get higher" still applies.
DeleteReally, I've stopped paying attention to my points beyond a reference of how I did relative to my previous same-activity workouts. I've also stopped having any illusions that Fito is going to actually incorporate any of the awesome ideas that have been put forth, including by its own forum mods, let alone tell the people anything about what's going on behind the scenes (everything is "that's planned but we have small staff").
An awesome community has built up around the site, and the social aspects far outweigh anything else there. My highest priority for change as a user of the site? Any sense of what the devs have in mind for that community - or even that they have a plan and aren't just grasping at straws trying to figure out this whole marketing thing (because OMG that last part is pretty damn obvious).
[/rant]
The community is what keeps it my favorite website. <3 I wouldn't be nearly the person I am today without it.
DeleteI guess the only reason I even look at points anymore is sort of as a game. I try to guesstimate my points after I click "submit workout" to see how close I can come... :) I'm always happy when I guess low.
ReplyDeleteAs for duels/challenges/whatevers...I typically won't enter them for free for all points or heaviest whatever because I won't even have a shot. I usually just leave my duels/challenges where they are and hope I win them. (Well...that's not completely true. I do add in more cycling and swimming during tri duels because they give me more points than running.) But, my lifting and running routines don't change as a result of my duels or challenges.
And yay for social!!! Cause that's how we all get to be friends and have good dialogue!! :)
<3 Bree
Ooo! Now I see where everyone went! *gets out the popcorn*
ReplyDeleteHaha...it SOOOO wasn't meant to be a continuation of the debate/rant from over on fito. But, I am glad to see that we are able to have some good discussion about it from both sides. :)
Deletewell, I think it was a perfectly valid discussion topic. However, as many have pointed out, the way it played out and was handled by various members on both sides of the fence was an EPIC FAILURE which spiralled out of control until it imploded due to the sheer mass of its own gravity. Good times! LOL
DeleteEvidently blogger doesn't have a "prop" button. What's up with that? :) Absolutely agreed on all points. :) Enjoy your popcorn!
DeleteReally enjoyed the conversation and civility of all on this blog post. Is it possible to agree with everything? ;)
ReplyDeleteThanks Breezey for making this possible!
No problems here! :) I'm glad to encourage free thought and discussion.
Delete(from COSpringer on Fitocracy)
ReplyDeleteRead through all the comments and really appreciated the civility and friendliness.
Just to clarify, I don't think the issue for me was a detailed discussion on lifting points vs. cardio points. It was simply the failure of the site owners or a moderator to take control of the situation in a Big Boy way. I am still a member of Fitocracy > Facebook, and would like to keep it that way!
Cardio points is an issue for some users in the community, and deserves more than rude comments and a dismissive attitude. A bit of distance from the issue, and lots of respect is required to negotiate these minefields.
A good CEO or manager would address this as an issue that some are concerned with, would point to a scientific paper or corporate paper that details why/wherefore points are allocated, indicate where such discussions can be held in an civil manner, and indicate the process for petitioning the site for changes. Also indicating that said process requires scientific justification in order to make changes.
I know this is a bit much for a start-up, but somebody needs to grow up if they plan on hosting a huge social site.
TL;DR: Keener's last comment is spot on. Hope the popcorn was tasty! :)
I agree. I also agree that it's sort of a moot point between cardio and lifting points. The exercises aren't really that similar and you can't really compare them.
DeleteI sent the Powers that Be (PTB) a long email last night and was satisfied that some of the harassment was dealt with on a PM/warning level. While I think this goes part of the way in dealing with the issue, I would have liked to see some sort of public reminder that harassment isn't allowed.
If there is a justification for the cardio being worth less, I'd like to see an UNBIASED (ie: not from a lifting website) source showing that cardio doesn't have the health benefits. Seeing one of the cofounders jump into the fray (even though in hindsight, I believe his comments were taken out of context) prompted me to write the letter.
TL;DR: absolutely theloraxis. I concur with your request for them to grow up and be unbiased.
:)
I went to bed last night thinking about how wonderful it was that we could have a rational conversation about the merits of different avenues to fitness. Thanks everyone for being amazing. <3
ReplyDelete